I’ve answered this sort of question plenty of times before, but basically:
1) Fetuses are not sentient. Animals are.
2) Animals are beings who exist outside of someone else. They are independent organisms who are not feeding off of or occupying the body of another being in order to live. They have their own rights to life because they are not harming another being or wearing down on a host (as fetuses do) and therefore there isn’t a valid reason to kill them unless it IS self-defense. Eating or using animals is not self-defense. Abortion is valid because it is self-defense/self-preservation to whoever is pregnant and does not want to be or cannot be. Pregnancy is physically, mentally, emotionally, and financially very taxing. Fetuses are essentially parasites to a human body when they are unwanted. A person has the right to terminate a pregnancy should they feel that it is necessary for any reason because if you deny them that, you deny them control of their very own body and own rights.
3) It is not at all inconsitent logic because veganism seeks to grant bodily autonomy to animals since they are sentient beings who value their lives and it takes nothing from humans to allow them that. Pro-choicers also want to make sure that every person has control of their own life and body by being able to choose if and when they reproduce. If you support one ideology, it only makes sense to support the other as well.
4) Fetuses are not children.
Nothing to pick apart there. It’s very logical and straight forward when you think about it.
Also respecting any and every opinion is just silly. Everyone has opinions. There are lots of ridiculous and detrimental opinions that do not warrant any respect.
You’re not a bother, don’t worry. Well, I feel like that’s a pretty silly notion, since there are plenty of vegan foods that are high in fat or calories if you want to gain weight. It’s obviously sometimes harder for certain people to gain weight than others, but it’s not plant foods that are to blame for that.
You can start eating a lot of oils with your foods like olive oil or canola oil or other vegetable oil. Things like peanut butter (or other nut butters), avocados, vegan margarine, or nuts/seeds (walnuts, cashews, peanuts, almonds, flax seeds, etc.) are all high in healthy fats. You can also eat grains to fill you up more, like pasta and rice. For instance, make bean and rice dishes with oil when you cook them (like stir fries or fried rice or whatever), make bean/rice burritos with avocado, make pasta dishes with oils or avocado as well. Cook lots of potato dishes with oils. You can also make a lot of vegan baked goods and desserts. You can even make your own pizza and add veggies to top it with. Google is your best friend for looking up vegan recipes that are high in fat/calories to help you gain weight. There are also a lot of junk foods that are accidentally vegan. I mean, I have no idea what you eat regularly and if I had a better idea I might be able to help more, but there are plenty of ways to add density and substance to vegan diets. You don’t have to harm animals by eating meat or animal products while trying to gain weight.
Yes, all human and non-human animals are inherently equal. That is what I’m saying. Women and other animals are not all exactly the same in every way, but our worth as individuals is the same and none of us deserve to be oppressed or exploited. All of us value our own lives just as much as the next one does. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that makes you more important than any other sentient being, human or not. You did nothing to get a one-up above every other animal on this planet. Just because you were born a human does not give you automatic superiority to everyone else. The only thing making you think that you are more valuable and more important than others is your own anthropocentric ego.
No, animals cannot give verbal consent to humans. But guess what? Not having consent means YOU DON’T HAVE CONSENT, AND THEREFORE SHOULDN’T DO IT. It’s fucking vile how many of you tools are reblogging my post saying “LOL COWS CAN’T GIVE CONSENT THOUGH!” Pretty sure that a lack of consent equals rape. A lack of being able to give consent does not equate to automatic consent. What about people who cannot speak? People who don’t have the mental capacity to understand consent? People who speak another language than their attacker? Children who can’t yet voice an answer? People who are restrained or silenced to the point of being unable to vocalize themselves or to escape? Hm? No verbal consent there, does that mean rape can’t be committed onto them? There are more ways than just verbal communication that can designate that you don’t have consent. Pro tip: if you have to restrain an animal while he or she is kicking and resisting and bellowing/screaming, that’s a pretty damn clear indication that they do not want it. Even if the animal was non-resistant due to being desensitized to it, that is still immoral because it is still not consent; it’s very similar to an adult preying on a child because humans know better and animals are innocent in the matter.
The way that we treat animals by confining and restraining them to do as we please with them is tyrannical and predatory in the same way that rapists or other abusers prey on humans. It is not at all acceptable. Just because they have lesser power than us does not mean we’re free to terrorize and abuse them nor does it negate the crimes done to them. Just because it is a crime committed onto a victim other than a human does not change the crime. If a cow and a human were each beaten with a metal bar, then they were both beaten with a bar — just like if a cow and a human are both raped, then they were both raped. They’re each just as capable of being assaulted or victims of a situation. The species of the victim does not determine what the crime was. The act is still the same. You’re an idiot.
I’m not worried about my health. I’m in great health. And B12 is an essential nutrient, yep. It is a nutrient that is easily found in items outside of animal sources and can even be supplemented without using animals if desired, but it isn’t necessary. Surprise, surprise. Just because you had no idea what the hell you were doing and didn’t even care to look into veganism deep enough to even know that there are vegan sources of vitamins like B12 does not mean I or any other vegan is going to be that moronic. I’m not sorry to say that you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.
Yeah, feminism is all about excluding those who don’t fit into your perception of what a female deserving of rights is? Because, you know, feminists have never been exclusive before and we have never changed our perception as time progresses of what feminism should be to better include all of those who are suffering at the hands of a detrimental society. Excluding certain females or others because they don’t measure up to your standards of who you consider to be worth rights and worth fighting for is never going to be something that any logical person fighting for equality wants to be part of.
Humans are not, and never will be, carnivores. I’m not sure you know what a carnivore is. Human bodies thrive best on plant-based diets, and we do not by any means require meat in order to live. Carnivores do, and they eat very minimal plant material, if any. No feminist is a carnivore, even if they choose to eat meat.
I truly you think that you shouldn’t try to police someone’s tone in an argument or go onto someone else’s blog and tell them to calm down when they have absolutely every right to be angry. Just because I am venting or wasn’t holding your hand and talking sweetly to you does not invalidate my argument. Good luck on actually trying to inform yourself the next time you seek information, rather than looking for any excuse to use as a scapegoat to get out of having to take information seriously.
Where on earth in my reply to you did I say anything that was not kind or was attacking you? You asked a question. I answered it. Just because you don’t like the answer doesn’t mean that you can claim I was being mean and therefore my answer is bogus, even though I said absolutely nothing in there that was a personal attack.
You are trying to defend selfishly killing for pleasure rather than survival. Of course I am going to be angry about that. It is not because I took it personally, it’s because you are literally saying that everyone should have the right to kill others if that’s what they want to do, not out of any actual need.
The fact of the matter is~~~ we have grocery stores now which give us plenty of options in what we eat. There is absolutely no reason for us to continue enslaving and killing animals. You can’t respect someone after you slit their throat for your taste buds. Animals are not “it”s, they are beings, not objects. Calling animals an “it” just makes you feel better because you are distancing yourself from the fact that you are unnecessarily slaughtering someone.
It is animal nature to eat meat if you are a carnivore and if you have no other options of food to live. We are not carnivores and we have plenty of other options; therefore animal consumption is not needed to live for us. Not a single thing we do anymore is based off of nature or instinct. We are not wild animals anymore. We understand that we are responsible for our actions now and we can choose not to kill when we don’t need to. Don’t give me that nonsense.
You still didn’t answer my question. Please learn to actually give a shit if you’re going to pretend like you do.
You do have a slight point, I have no idea what it’s like working in those horrible conditions. However, how do you not see that same type of working condition applies to those who work in slaughterhouses and other factories of animal production? The factories are cramped and filthy with poor air circulation, also being dreadfully hot and they risk dehydration as well. There is feces and blood and who knows what else covering the floors where they work. If they came from outside of the US, they also traveled that dangerous journey and risked a violent death. Now, you are also throwing into the mix that they are being told to kill animals repeatedly for hours on end. Workers in slaughterhouses are constantly injuring themselves, often times being mauled or severely harmed from the machinery which they use too quickly without proper precision since they are rushed. Now also think that every one of those animals is going to be resisting — screaming, kicking, biting, needing to be heavily restrained, also possibly injuring the worker. Blood is everywhere and fear is sensed throughout and people are stressed because what the fuck kind of work environment is that? I can only imagine the sort of damage it must do to someone’s psyche as well as their body.
To say whether that is worse than what workers go through to harvest produce is not my place, but don’t pretend like only workers harvesting vegetables go through something awful. Your hands are bloodier than vegans’ are, because you are responsible for both of those types of work. I don’t think you should be trying to point out that vegetable harvesting often involves cruel working conditions when you aren’t even attempting to evaluate the ways in which people are working for meat and animal products. Not to mention the fact that animal agriculture involves the exact same vegetable/crop harvesting labor you claim to so adamantly oppose. Those animals have to be fed, and what do they eat? Yeah, cheap, subsidized crops harvested from the very same underprivileged workers.
But let’s not forget that the most ignored and most ill-fated victims involved here are the animals. Every single one of them is guaranteed a bloody, horrific, violent death at the hands of people who are already distressed and likely to be more violent to get them to submit to them. There is no escape for them. They will not live to see another day, no question about it. The human workers are not the only ones who are working in awful conditions, remember. The animals are not only being slaughtered but they are dying in such agony after being forced to work and provide excessive amounts of products for human consumption without even their consent. They are caged and confined and their entire existence is controlled by people with crowbars and electric prods who show absolutely no mercy to them, for they are just an object to them. They are abrasively milked and their eggs are taken and their children are stolen and bars are digging into their skin and machines are ripping off their flesh and they are left wounded, scared, and helpless. Until one day they are boiled alive, beaten to death, or have their throats slit while they kick and drown in a pool of their own blood. And somehow, that’s not an issue to you?
Privilege, I guess.
Yeah, some animals do eat other animals. In the wild. While being a mutually beneficial part of an ecosystem. For survival. Without grocery stores. Without tools or knowledge or ability to do otherwise. Not having any choice in the matter. Because they are carnivores and require flesh to survive. None of which applies to humans in the industrialized world. We are capable of rationalizing our actions and choosing not to kill or to hurt someone else when we do not need to. Wild carnivorous animals who eat other animals are not in that position, so their reasoning for doing so is not even comparable to our reasoning for it.
There is not a single bit of human existence in the modern world that resembles a food chain or the way that wild animals live. We are not part of any codependency with nature, we now exist in a state of purely taking from nature and never returning anything back. We are essentially leeches to the planet at this point who are destroying it as we go.
Humans are animals, as you just pointed out. You just tried to say that we are exactly the same as animals and that our lives mimic theirs, and that’s why we should get to eat meat. So why do you need to stress so much that human females are TOTALLY different from other female animals, implying that we deserve better treatment or more consideration? Are we the same and equal to animals, or are we not? If you truly believe that animals are equal to us spiritually, why on earth do you try to throw them under the bus and deem them as less important or different than humans? Why would you want to purposefully and deliberately kill and exploit them? It makes zero sense if you genuinely think that.
To disregard animals as “others” from us, to separate them from us, is the exact same theory behind any other form of oppression. It is the same mindset behind sexism or any other -ism used to oppress people. How come when we are confronted with the way we treat animals as “others” and separate their experiences and their lives from us, we don’t recognize that inequality and treat it with disdain? Rather than taking a step back and trying to understand that other animals matter just as much as we do, people try to selfishly defend it. But then again, people do that same shit with things like sexism all the time.
Now, I’m not saying that things like sexism and racism and other -isms are all exactly the same. Speciesism is different than sexism because it manifests and affects others in different ways, just like sexism affects people differently than racism does. While I know what it feels like to be a victim of sexism, I will never understand racism because I am white. They are not entirely the same, but they all come from the same viewpoint. All of those types of oppressions are rooted in the belief that you should get to mistreat and exploit others simply because they are different than you which is what makes them all equally horrid. Whether the factor involved is gender, race, sexuality, species, or any other similar determinant, all of those things are the result of oppression based on othering somebody else. And that shit is never something that an actual feminist should be doing. It is unfeminist to believe that non-human animals or any other human being exists to serve you and for you to use.
My opinions of the mistreated, underpaid, migrant workers who harvest produce is that they are in an unfortunate situation which needs immediate change and people should always try to buy their produce from fair sources. What is your opinion of all of the mistreated, underpaid, migrant workers who harvest crops to feed animals which are then slaughtered by even more mistreated, underpaid, migrant workers who work in meat plants and slaughterhouses? What about the people who have to deal with knives and blades and blood and kicking, screaming animals which is an exponentially more stressful environment than harvesting produce? Even if one cannot for whatever reason buy all fair trade foods and goods, veganism is still the most ethical choice. It contributes to the smaller amount of human and animal oppression. A vegan lifestyle, even if using products from unethical sources, is still causing less harm to humans than a meat eater’s lifestyle because meat eating/animal product consumption requires double the amount of human exploitation. Those workers are harvesting crops to feed animals, AND those workers are going to be working in slaugtherhouses as well. And that doesn’t even begin to include all of the added animal suffering and exploitation that is part of a meat-eating lifestyle. So if you genuinely care at all about non-human animals or even humans, the only choice is veganism.
years. We are animals too. We have the power to do things better but we should not be ashamed of our own nature either. I just wanted to make that point.
I don’t know how many times I can answer these same questions over and over again before pulling my hair out.
You just told me yourself that animal agriculture is destroying the planet. Why, then, attempt to protect it when you know it is detrimental in at least one significant way? The ramifications of animal products on the environment is really just the tip of the iceberg, but even based on that alone you should know better than to try to claim we should keep doing it when you’ve acknowledged it is problematic and destructive.
We have predominantly flat canine teeth, as do many animals, but we’re still developed to best thrive on plant foods. We can eat meat and animal products, sure, but they do more harm than good to us. But, stop right there. Whether or not we can eat meat is not the point. The point is that it is proven that we can thrive, and often times even do much better, without exploiting animals and eating and consuming their products. Therefore, to continue to do so is done out of selfishness and is not justifiable.
Not to mention, civilization was also built on human oppression. It was built on slavery, rape, pillaging, murdering, war, and stealing from others. We used to, and still do today, benefit from systems which relied on oppression of humans in forms of things like enslavement, killing, violence, racism, sexism, and so on. Civilization would not be what it is today without those things. History tells us that we have done for years and years things which we now understand to be unnecessary and immoral because those things discounted the experience of millions of others and were opressive. Does the fact that it was done in the past and as a result it got us to where we are now make those things suddenly okay? The same exact concept applies to animal exploitation. Animal exploitation is no less abhorrent than all of the other horrible things we have done to each other in benefit of personal gain. It is not excusable or exempt from being immoral just because someone else benefits from it or has in the past.
Whether or not our ancestors ate and thrived on meat is not the issue here either. We may have evolved eating meat, but we have now evolved to a point where we do not need it anymore and it is harmful to us, the environment, and above all it comes from the absolute oppression of other sentient beings who do not by any means deserve to be enslaved and exploited by us for shit we don’t need. We are no longer at a place of requiring meat and doing it for survival or evolution to better ourselves; instead we have now gotten to a point of complete tyranny over the planet and other animals which is for obvious reasons barbaric and cruel at the very least. If you strive to be an ethical person, you should strive to include other sentient beings in your realm of compassion and empathy. To turn a blind eye to animals’ needless suffering and oppression because maybe thousands of years ago some ancestor of ours who lived in the wild needed to hunt an animal for survival is just completely outrageous. It is absolutely something to be ashamed of if you clearly can choose not to harm someone or to kill someone, yet you do so anyway because you simply want to.
Evolution is constant change. You don’t get to a certain point and then just decide to stop because you’re content there and you want to selfishly keep doing things when you have blatant reason not to. Veganism is the next step in human progression. Evolve. Go vegan.
Not indirectly. It’s very direct. The veal industry was actually invented by the dairy industry when the dairy industry had an excess “supply” of calves and they wanted to figure out another way to profit off of animal exploitation, as if they weren’t already causing enough misery among animals. I’m not sure whether or not you’re aware of it yet, but dairy cows only produce milk because they give birth, exactly like a human’s milk production. So to produce a steady supply of milk throughout their lives, they have to be constantly giving birth (and their impregnation methods are more often than not rape from artificial insemination). Of course, a lot of the calves born are males, and those are useless to dairy production, so they are either sent off for veal right after birth — or they are killed immediately in brutal methods, left to starve, or just thrown into the trash. This happens to female calves as well, too, if they don’t have room for more dairy cows. Otherwise, females are raised to continue the vicious cycle of dairying. All dairy directly supports the veal and beef industries, because eventually they will all slaughter their cows and the calves born to dairy cows in order to produce milk are all considered useless and will eventually be slaughtered very young as well. Take a look at what I’m talking about. I’ve linked these before, and I’ll link them again every time I get this question: Ohio veal investigation | Texas dairy calf “disposal” methods | Ohio dairy farm footage | Mercy for Animals dairy calf rescue
Even if let’s say there just happens to be some farm out there which does not slaughter any of their animals: cow’s milk is for calves, not humans. The whole problem is that when we drink milk, a cow’s baby does not. A baby somewhere is starving to death or being fed an unnatural diet which can’t nourish them properly all so that we can have a product which is killing us in the long run. If calves were allowed to drink as much of their mother’s milk as they need to, there would be none for us to steal. The only case when cows produce more milk than their calves need is when they are injected with detrimental hormones which make them produce excessive amounts of milk and causes extreme distress on their bodies. See the issue? It’s an endless cycle of misery no matter which way you look at it.
We don’t need cow’s milk to survive any more than we need dog’s milk or cat’s milk or giraffe’s milk. We are supposed to be weaned off of our mother’s milk around two years of age, and that should be the end of drinking any mammal milk. There are a multitude of alternatives you can drink instead such as almond, soy, coconut, hazelnut, hemp, and rice milk. You can find them fairly easily at almost any store, or you can make your own. There’s no reason to make cows and their babies suffer on our behalf. I should also specify that this is the same for the production of goat’s milk or any other animal’s milk. Cow’s milk is just the most common type so I assume that’s what people have in mind.
The same goes for the production of eggs. All male chicks in the egg industry are ground up alive or suffocated to death by being thrown into dumpters with thousands of other freshly hatched chicks. All chickens used for the production of eggs come from these hatcheries, so even someone who has hens whose eggs they sell out of their backyard is supporting this. But, most importantly, hens will actually eat their own unfertilized eggs if allowed and they need the nutrients within them after the stressful event of laying eggs repeatedly throughout her life.
Above all of that, treating an animal as property and only using her (and her offspring) as a production vessel will never be “fair.” Using animals for production methods for anything will never be fair because the animals have no choice, the animals suffer one way or another, and we are controlling and ending their lives for our own wants. The premise of veganism is that animals are not property, and anything they do or make in their lives is not up for us to exploit or use.
I can’t stress it enough. Animal products are not ours to take. There is not and never will be a fair or humane way to exploit an animal. The only solution is to go vegan.
Cow’s milk? You mean the milk that comes from animals who are fed massive amounts of processed GMO soy all of their lives who live in their own feces and produce milk with blood and pus in it while their crying calves are being locked up and killed? If your dad thinks soy is so horrible for you, he should cut out animal products. Animals exploited in the food industry are fed soy on a much larger scale than people are, and it’s low grade, genetically modified soy that isn’t even fit for consumption which ends up causing stomach ulcers in them. No vegan could ever consume as much soy as non-vegans do.
Contrary to popular belief, soy is not an inseparable part of veganism. It can be avoided if you want to. If you really are concerned about it, start drinking almond milk (or some other type) and decrease or eliminate your soy consumption. Almond milk tastes way better anyway. BUT~! There’s no need to do that if you don’t want to. There’s nothing wrong with soy products. Just eat multiple sources of protein, not just soy, and you’ll be fine. Tofu is yummy. Soy can be great for you so long as you’re getting adequate nutrients from varied foods and you’re consuming non-GMO soy, preferably organic, products. Your dad sucks.
If your issue before was throwing yourself in without knowing much or planning anything, then I’d suggest doing some research first and getting a better understanding of veganism and the types of stuff to look out for. Make sure you’re getting all the nutrients you need and eating the right foods. Vegankit.com is a really helpful link on vegan information and the “food” section has a great bit on nutrition. This link is helpful for nutrition information as well.
If you think you rushed into it too quickly before, try a more gradual transitional approach this time. While I’d love it if everyone could go vegan immediately, I know some people find that too difficult. I did the gradual transition myself. While I really wish I had gone vegan sooner and faster, I’d definitely prefer someone new to take a bit longer to go vegan and stick with it rather than have someone rush into it only to change their mind and give up veganism shortly after.
If you need to do it gradually, I would start by replacing and/or cutting out types of animal products one by one. If you have the money to, start buying vegan product alternatives. If you have a tighter budget, start learning how to cook and eat without the expensive alternatives. For instance, replace your milk with a vegan one such as almond, soy, rice, or coconut (I recommend almond first and soy secondly). Once you manage that, replace your butter with either a vegan butter or oil. Cut out eggs from your diet and learn to cook and bake without them. Cheese seems to always be the most difficult for everyone. I don’t even eat vegan cheese because it isn’t sold around here, and cheese was previously my favorite food. It was tough to give up, but I don’t regret it for a second. If they sell Daiya cheese or Follow Your Heart cheese, I’ve heard those two are good replacements. Cut out honey, use agave nectar instead. After that, start watching your products for trace ingredients with less easily reconizable names in them (gelatin, lanolin, carmine, casein, etc.). Be sure not to buy products with milk, eggs, and so on in them. And then work on the lifestyle bit — remove leather, wool, silk, and animal products from your wardrobe and only buy products which aren’t tested on animals. It sounds kind of overwhelming when it’s all put out there like that, but I promise it eventually becomes second nature to you and you won’t know any other way. You’ll never want to know any other way. It’s beyond worth it.
I suppose during your “planning period” you should just do as much research on veganism as you can. Watch this speech on veganism (it’s probably just as important to watch as Earthlings). Learn about the ways in which animals suffer in the animal industries through other means besides watching Earthlings if you must. While Earthlings is really important to watch, I can understand how horrible it is and how one could want to avoid it. Still, being aware of those things is crucial and if you can’t make yourself watch, at least make yourself be informed of what is happening. However, I really feel like seeing what happens to these animals first hand is the surest way to never want to take part in it again. When I had cravings, my mind flashed back to images or video clips I had seen of animals suffering for food or other purposes and my cravings were immediately gone.
I’m not sure if I’m missing anything, I probably am, but feel free to send me another ask if you have more questions or need advice. I’d love to help you if you need it. I really do hope you and your partner will make the full transition and stay vegan this time. Good luck. :)
Yeah, of course you can talk to me. My ask box is always open, and you don’t have to be anonymous. I usually answer my asks privately unless they’re beneficial to the public, but if you’re more comfortable being anon that’s alright too.
When I watched Earthlings for the first time I had to continuously pause it throughout to recollect myself and take breaks while I was sobbing. It took me a few hours to finish it. However, that really is the entire point. It isn’t supposed to be comforting. It’s supposed to make you sick and it’s supposed to shock you to get you to understand what your current lifestyle revolves around so that you’ll want to change for the better. Most people would never in their lives want to witness, let alone support, so many of the atrocities which are shown in Earthlings. Yet by not being vegan, that’s exactly what you are doing, unintentionally or not. That’s the type of everyday situation that animals are subjected to day in and day out because people want to use them or take products from them. And while yes, it’s beyond upsetting for us to see, our discomfort from being removed from our ignorance of the suffering we support is absolutely nothing compared to the suffering of the animals who are living it. If we are supporting their misery, we owe it to them to at least see what they are going through on our behalf and we need to inform ourselves so that we can do our best to no longer contribute to their suffering.
I highly suggest watching this speech on YouTube as well as watching Earthlings. It’s a much less scary yet very informative piece on veganism, but I’d say that both of those are just as important to watch. Earthlings shows you up front the kind of things you are supporting while his speech breaks down veganism and explains it much better. Those two things were crucial to my understanding of veganism and they are what made me decide to transition.
I hope you’ll finish it and decide to switch to veganism, because animal rights really is such an important issue that we can’t ignore anymore. If you ever wanna talk or have any questions, feel free to send me another ask. :)
Spaying/neutering our animals is an absolutely mandatory part of being a responsible animal caretaker. Breeding animals is beyond horrible and refusing to spay/neuter is not only awful for a domesticated animal’s health but it contributes to the death of millions of homeless animals who are killed annually. I can’t believe people still have to ask this. Spay and neuter or get the fuck out.